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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>For me it really depends. Is the game complete in feel in its entirety without the dlc? A recent example I think is the new final fantasy ends on at “To be continued” and you need to purchase the dlc just to get the ending. That is wrong and I can see why people would be upset.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Unfortunately it seems to be more and more the case about not what is my art or entertainment, but what is the minimum we can ship that people will pay for, and then take the rest and bundle it as dlc. Its about monitization. I’m currently in the diablo beta and I can even see many of the choises being made less about making the game better and more about making the real money auction house more apealing and pushing the price up of items on it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kam<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> pigmi-pigmi.org-bounces@lists.pigmi.org [mailto:pigmi-pigmi.org-bounces@lists.pigmi.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Christopher Hayward<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 23 February 2012 11:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> pigmi@pigmi.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [PIGMI] DLC and Launch Content<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Just to clarify, the market backlash I was referring to was the one regarding DLC involving obviously cut content. I can't think of a specific example, but Take2 and some absolutely forgettable game come to mind.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 23 February 2012 09:43, Peter Chillemi <<a href="mailto:chillemi@internode.on.net">chillemi@internode.on.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I agree with chris, but I think the notion of a market backlash is flawed. Most gamers will jump at the idea of a boycott but time has shown again and again that they lack constitution and buy it anyway. Publishers will push boundaries on game monetization as long as there is someone to pay for it.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Christopher Hayward</span><br><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Sent: </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>23/02/2012 8:00 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>To: </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:pigmi@pigmi.org" target="_blank">pigmi@pigmi.org</a></span><br><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Subject: </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Re: [PIGMI] DLC and Launch Content</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I hate the argument of "if it's on the disk I should own it, I paid for the disc". It doesn't make any sense to me because you're arguing semantics on transmission media. If the day one was downloadable, and not on the disk, would you be happy now? Probably not. ( I can't see people being happy with downloading a gig of DLC on day one, either. (See Catwoman DLC) ) So why does it matter if it's on the disk? Because you 'paid' for it? Give me a break. No, you didn't.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The fact remains, you don't actually have a right to all the content on the disk, if they didn't tell you that the DLC is included with what you're purchasing. I don't agree with the self-entitled nature of a seeming majority of gamers, and I side with the publishers on this one.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On the topic of day one dlc itself, I don't think that developers actually hold back content for DLC often. I think it's happened a few times, sure, but on the whole, the content is stuff that gets cut for time constraints, and gets completed between gold and launch, or is so trivial that it's completed by devs and asset creators that are otherwise twiddling their thumbs before gold.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Those few times the content has deliberately been carved out? I think the market backlash has generally scared publishers from ever doing that again, but the accusations will persist for a long time coming.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Also, on the topic of the 'online pass'. Sure, it doesn't make a lot of sense for games like Amalur, where it basically meant the same as 'have some armour', but for games like Battlefield 3? I can accept this. What people fail to understand is that it costs publishers to even create an 'account' for you on today's "TRACK ALL THE STATISTICS" on the servers. Why should Joe 'i got this second hand' Cheapskate get access to the online game and cost the publishers money without kicking a little towards them for compensation? Because the original owner already paid for it? That money was burnt when the original owner played online.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Ultimately, no-ones forcing you to pay for these things. If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't be doing it. You want them to keep making games, right?<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 23 February 2012 07:11, Paul Turbett (Black Lab Games) <<a href="mailto:paul@blacklabgames.com.au" target="_blank">paul@blacklabgames.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This is all about publishers/EA getting money from the 2nd hand market. Whilst a reasonable number of people will buy the game new, many,many more will get a 2nd hand copy, for which EA & Bioware will not see a single cent - dispite sending millions to develop the game in the first place. DLC is quite profitable, so having "important" DLC is a way to get the people buying secondhand to give money to the developers. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>L8r Paul<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>On Thursday, February 23, 2012, Matthew Dyet wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So I’d be interested to hear what other developers here think of this, since I think it’s an interesting topic.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mass Effect 3 launches next month, and it’s recently been revealed that there will be launch day DLC that you can purchase (or that you get for free with the collectors) and its content is pretty important to the games universe. Not necessarily important just to the story of Mass Effect 3, but to the story of the Mass Effect universe as a whole.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>One of the arguments I’ve seen made (you can see the video I am referring to here: <a href="http://youtu.be/Ri0vrJ-y2zM" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/Ri0vrJ-y2zM</a> ) is that any game content that is complete before the game is released should not be made into DLC, as that then means the final product of the game is no longer complete. It seems to assume that making a game is like making a pie, and for any launch day DLC you are taking a slice of that pie out and selling it separately. Do you see it like that, or do you see it more like launch day DLC being more like a smaller pie you make and sell alongside the bigger one?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The Mass Effect 3 release day DLC is interesting, because it IS important, but I am not sure it is important to the central storyline in ME3 so much as it is important to the Mass Effect universe overall. But because it was developed in tandem with the game, should it be required content for the game to be ‘complete’? Is removing it and making it DLC at launch detrimental to the game and leave the core game an incomplete product?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’d personally argue no, but I’m purposefully keeping this as neutral as possible to start a discussion – not make a statement. I’m more interested in hearing what everybody else on the PIGMI list thinks. Is the customer obligated to receive any content you have available when the game is done, or is it up to the discretion of the developer as to where, when and how a player gets new content?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cheers,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>-Matthew Dyet</span></b><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ph:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> 0466 726 206</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Em:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> mattdyet@iinet.net.au</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Web:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <a href="http://twitter.com/#!/Diomades" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/#!/Diomades</a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'><br><br>-- <br>Paul Turbett<br>Black Lab Games<br><a href="http://www.blacklabgames.com.au" target="_blank">www.blacklabgames.com.au</a> | <a href="http://www.twitter.com/blacklabgames" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/blacklabgames</a><br></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>PIGMI mailing list - <a href="http://pigmi.org/" target="_blank">http://pigmi.org/</a> - <a href="mailto:pigmi@pigmi.org" target="_blank">pigmi@pigmi.org</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a href="http://lists.pigmi.org/listinfo.cgi/pigmi-pigmi.org" target="_blank">http://lists.pigmi.org/listinfo.cgi/pigmi-pigmi.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>PIGMI mailing list - <a href="http://pigmi.org/" target="_blank">http://pigmi.org/</a> - <a href="mailto:pigmi@pigmi.org">pigmi@pigmi.org</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a href="http://lists.pigmi.org/listinfo.cgi/pigmi-pigmi.org" target="_blank">http://lists.pigmi.org/listinfo.cgi/pigmi-pigmi.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>